There is a lot here to unpack. Being against violence of any kind, including animals, diminishes the value of human life in my opinion. 1) Animals are food. 2) Animals are resource (leather, etc.). 3) Animals are killed with crop farming intentionally and unintentionally. Animals will be killed by humans for humans to survive. Either way…
There is a lot here to unpack. Being against violence of any kind, including animals, diminishes the value of human life in my opinion. 1) Animals are food. 2) Animals are resource (leather, etc.). 3) Animals are killed with crop farming intentionally and unintentionally. Animals will be killed by humans for humans to survive. Either way, animal life cannot be measured in the same value as human life in society (and I would argue morally).
Regarding the rules of civilization changing. I am not sure they have changed much at all outside of any measurable category of development increasing in a positive manner across all of civilization. There is no a solution in which there will be no classes. Even in prisons where every inmate gets the same cell, free time, food, etc., there is a class system.
The definition of the American Dream may be changing, but I am not sure the opportunities to achieve someone's own definition of the American Dream is not. Who feels excluded? How does that relate to an increase in violence?
The title and role of a man murdered is irrelevant unless it was a case of self-defense. This is definitely sensational news and will carry much weight, apparently even more than the near assassin(s) of former/named President Trump. Freedom is messy. Society is messy.
I am not sure this CEO murder is a proper representation of the status our society, but the responses to it may be...
Greg, I don’t know you personally, but I appreciate your passion for leveraging what you believe God has provided for human prosperity. Allow me to introduce a bit of my own perspective. I’m known for taking on the role of devil’s advocate, challenging beliefs so long as those involved are discussing in good faith. I’m also a religious individual, and your statements reminded me of a similar conversation I recently had with my pastor. While I won’t assume your position stems from religious conviction, I understand how firmly held beliefs can arise from such foundations. Before I continue, let me be clear: I’m not judging your life choices, nor do I believe in using force to change anyone’s mind. Open dialogue is the only way we can truly move forward.
Your statement—“Being against violence of any kind, including animals, diminishes the value of human life in my opinion”—suggests that respecting animal life somehow lessens our regard for human life. In my view, this frames the issue as a zero-sum game. Believing that killing animals is wrong, or even that animals have souls, doesn’t inherently reduce the worth we assign to human beings. Both can coexist without diminishing one another. For analogy, consider social movements: “Black Lives Matter” doesn’t imply that white lives matter less, and “White Lives Matter” doesn’t negate the value of minority lives. Similarly, advocating for men’s rights (this is something I am very passionate about) doesn’t mean opposing women’s rights. None of these perspectives need to be at odds if we recognize that moral considerations can operate in tandem rather than in competition.
Let me share a personal anecdote. I’ve been teaching my daughter that choosing a vegan lifestyle is one way to express love and respect for animals. At a family meal one Sunday, I asked her why she’s vegan, she simply said, “Because I love animals.” My mother-in-law found this both endearing and, in a way, unsettling. She insisted she also loves animals. I replied, “Yes, certain ones.” (She was eating steak at the dinner table) Many people differentiate between which animals are deserving of compassion and which are considered food. In the United States, dogs are typically seen as companions, never a meal; in some other cultures, this distinction doesn’t exist. Kangaroos are cherished in some places and viewed as a resource in others such as Australia. These cultural differences underscore how morality is deeply influenced by upbringing, society, and circumstance.
To be perfectly clear, I’m not condemning people who must rely on animal-based resources for survival. If one truly needs to kill an animal to live, that’s a different moral context. But assuming we both live in a developed country, it’s hard to justify the routine killing of animals when viable, nutrient-rich alternatives are readily available. We live in an age of abundance where plant-based options can often surpass animal products in both health benefits and accessibility.
Ultimately, your stance reinforces my broader point: morality is more subjective than we often acknowledge. The value we assign to life—human or otherwise—varies widely based on our cultural norms, individual experiences, and personal beliefs.
The rest of your points I believe I have responded to in Travis' reply, but if not I am here to discuss if you feel I missed something.
It is awesome that veganism is an option for our civilization. I have explored veganism myself, but never to the level of not using any animal products because it became so unrealistic. leather is everywhere. Other goods from animals are everywhere. Animals are killed to grow crops…. Whether is your local farmer shooting/trapping rabbits, foxes, coyotes or other animals that tamper with their crops or combines mowing down deer, birds, any any other mammal in the area. But the choice to avoid eating meat is awesome; however, the idea that it is morally superior or even resulting in less animal death is very open for discussion and critique.
I agree white lives versus black lives is similar, but we are somehow brining in animal lives are similar to human lives; they are not, no matter how cute they are or how much I love my pets. I am not sure this is grounded in religion or beliefs because I can’t picture anyone actually disagreeing in this reality versus theory.
To the original post of Travis which seems to be getting lost, to say a door is open in justifying human murder or not is such a trending theme right now is concerning for the moral fabric of our society. Appreciate the dialogue and conversation.
There is a lot here to unpack. Being against violence of any kind, including animals, diminishes the value of human life in my opinion. 1) Animals are food. 2) Animals are resource (leather, etc.). 3) Animals are killed with crop farming intentionally and unintentionally. Animals will be killed by humans for humans to survive. Either way, animal life cannot be measured in the same value as human life in society (and I would argue morally).
Regarding the rules of civilization changing. I am not sure they have changed much at all outside of any measurable category of development increasing in a positive manner across all of civilization. There is no a solution in which there will be no classes. Even in prisons where every inmate gets the same cell, free time, food, etc., there is a class system.
The definition of the American Dream may be changing, but I am not sure the opportunities to achieve someone's own definition of the American Dream is not. Who feels excluded? How does that relate to an increase in violence?
The title and role of a man murdered is irrelevant unless it was a case of self-defense. This is definitely sensational news and will carry much weight, apparently even more than the near assassin(s) of former/named President Trump. Freedom is messy. Society is messy.
I am not sure this CEO murder is a proper representation of the status our society, but the responses to it may be...
Greg, I don’t know you personally, but I appreciate your passion for leveraging what you believe God has provided for human prosperity. Allow me to introduce a bit of my own perspective. I’m known for taking on the role of devil’s advocate, challenging beliefs so long as those involved are discussing in good faith. I’m also a religious individual, and your statements reminded me of a similar conversation I recently had with my pastor. While I won’t assume your position stems from religious conviction, I understand how firmly held beliefs can arise from such foundations. Before I continue, let me be clear: I’m not judging your life choices, nor do I believe in using force to change anyone’s mind. Open dialogue is the only way we can truly move forward.
Your statement—“Being against violence of any kind, including animals, diminishes the value of human life in my opinion”—suggests that respecting animal life somehow lessens our regard for human life. In my view, this frames the issue as a zero-sum game. Believing that killing animals is wrong, or even that animals have souls, doesn’t inherently reduce the worth we assign to human beings. Both can coexist without diminishing one another. For analogy, consider social movements: “Black Lives Matter” doesn’t imply that white lives matter less, and “White Lives Matter” doesn’t negate the value of minority lives. Similarly, advocating for men’s rights (this is something I am very passionate about) doesn’t mean opposing women’s rights. None of these perspectives need to be at odds if we recognize that moral considerations can operate in tandem rather than in competition.
Let me share a personal anecdote. I’ve been teaching my daughter that choosing a vegan lifestyle is one way to express love and respect for animals. At a family meal one Sunday, I asked her why she’s vegan, she simply said, “Because I love animals.” My mother-in-law found this both endearing and, in a way, unsettling. She insisted she also loves animals. I replied, “Yes, certain ones.” (She was eating steak at the dinner table) Many people differentiate between which animals are deserving of compassion and which are considered food. In the United States, dogs are typically seen as companions, never a meal; in some other cultures, this distinction doesn’t exist. Kangaroos are cherished in some places and viewed as a resource in others such as Australia. These cultural differences underscore how morality is deeply influenced by upbringing, society, and circumstance.
To be perfectly clear, I’m not condemning people who must rely on animal-based resources for survival. If one truly needs to kill an animal to live, that’s a different moral context. But assuming we both live in a developed country, it’s hard to justify the routine killing of animals when viable, nutrient-rich alternatives are readily available. We live in an age of abundance where plant-based options can often surpass animal products in both health benefits and accessibility.
Ultimately, your stance reinforces my broader point: morality is more subjective than we often acknowledge. The value we assign to life—human or otherwise—varies widely based on our cultural norms, individual experiences, and personal beliefs.
The rest of your points I believe I have responded to in Travis' reply, but if not I am here to discuss if you feel I missed something.
It is awesome that veganism is an option for our civilization. I have explored veganism myself, but never to the level of not using any animal products because it became so unrealistic. leather is everywhere. Other goods from animals are everywhere. Animals are killed to grow crops…. Whether is your local farmer shooting/trapping rabbits, foxes, coyotes or other animals that tamper with their crops or combines mowing down deer, birds, any any other mammal in the area. But the choice to avoid eating meat is awesome; however, the idea that it is morally superior or even resulting in less animal death is very open for discussion and critique.
I agree white lives versus black lives is similar, but we are somehow brining in animal lives are similar to human lives; they are not, no matter how cute they are or how much I love my pets. I am not sure this is grounded in religion or beliefs because I can’t picture anyone actually disagreeing in this reality versus theory.
To the original post of Travis which seems to be getting lost, to say a door is open in justifying human murder or not is such a trending theme right now is concerning for the moral fabric of our society. Appreciate the dialogue and conversation.